Inside the Podcaster's Studio: Private Podcast with Nicole Cheri Oden

Welcome to Season 3 of the podcast!   

My first guest is Nicole Cheri Oden, host of the Uncomplicating Trademarks podcast.   

Nicole wanted to help digital content creators and online service providers understand complex legal processes.  

What I find so interesting is that her podcast is private.   

You need to sign up to get access to the episodes. So that when you enter her world, you really want to be there.  

We chat about how Nicole launched her podcast, shares her challenges and her inquisitive, experimental attitude towards podcasting!   

Nicole’s Top Tip is to commit to starting your podcast and to reach out for help if you are overwhelmed.  

About Nicole 

A licensed attorney in the State of California for 12+ years, Nicole left Big Law to start her own virtual law firm – Nicole Cheri Oden Law, PC – to make trademark registration and boutique legal services accessible to small business owners across the United States.  

After Nicole started working with fellow online entrepreneurs, she found many of them were overwhelmed by their legal needs. So she opened her digital shop, Legal Templates and More, to bring legal awareness and protection to small business owners.  

Her attorney-drafted templates are customizable for almost every industry – making legal protection available to everyone!  

Sign up for the podcast - https://nicolecheriodenlaw.com/podcast/  

Website - https://nicolecheriodenlaw.com/   

Connect on Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/nicolecheriodenlaw/  

Transcript of Episode

Rachael Botfield: [00:00:00] Hi, and welcome to podcasting one on one with Rachel. This podcast is for busy female entrepreneurs who run their own businesses and want to start a podcast or who may already have a podcast. I want to share practical information and tips on how you can get your podcast started and managing it along the way.

I'll also be interviewing other female podcast hosts to give you real insight into what it's like. Have

Nicole Cheri Oden: Hi,

Rachael Botfield: everybody, and welcome to this week's episode. Today I am welcoming Nicole Cherie Oden. Nicole is an attorney and legal consultant from the States who helps online service providers and digital content creators. She is also the host [00:01:00] of the Uncomplicating Trademarks, a private podcast, which is why I've invited her here today to share her.

Podcast insights and experience with all of you. So welcome Nicole.

Nicole Cheri Oden: Thanks, Rachel. I'm excited to be here. Yeah. I'm excited

Rachael Botfield: to chat to you. It's been a while since we've chatted because we met. I'm trying to remember the year. I feel, I feel hard when, when I was, it was through Michelle Denayo's Accelerated Business Alliance.

Are you still part of the Alliance?

Nicole Cheri Oden: No, so the alliance? No, so the alliance is no longer going. She's relaunched a year long focused visionary program and that I am a part of. And that just kicked off in December and that's been great. Oh,

Rachael Botfield: this is her planning thing. Yes, I've heard about her because she used to just do The single planning thing, didn't she, like the December and then she's made into a year long program now.

Well, I love Michelle Michelle Denies Podcast, her strategy while I still listen to that and that's how I kind of got to know you and, and Michelle. So, just for a little bit of context for listeners. So, do you want to just let us know a little bit more [00:02:00] about what you do and also like why you decided to start a podcast?

Nicole Cheri Oden: Yeah. So like you said, I'm a licensed attorney in California. I've been licensed for 12 years now, and I work pretty much primarily with online business owners. And so a lot of coaches, agency owners social media managers, VAs, those types of clients. And, I mean, if we're being honest, legal can feel very dry and people have a very clear impression of what they think legal is and what an attorney looks like and what the process looks like.

And so for me, Starting the private podcast was a way for me to connect with not only potential clients, but also current clients, because it's become a great resource for me to send current clients to if they have questions and like want to flush something out a little bit more. Maybe after we have a strategy session and it's kind of reinforcing something we talked about.

So it's become a great [00:03:00] resource kind of for various. Yeah,

Rachael Botfield: I think that when people hear kind of legal, it's like, Oh, I don't, I don't know about it. And what the kind of process is as well. So it can be quite sometimes a daunting thing. I think it's like up there with GDPR stuff, I think sometimes, but I think that that's like a common misconception, isn't it?

Actually, when you look at it, you can make it much more palatable for people to. be able to embrace that side of thing for their business because it's an important thing to do for your business to make sure that everything is, you know, set up correctly.

Nicole Cheri Oden: Yeah. I think when you approach it to as an online business owner, I kind of, a lot of people will shut down because they just think, Oh my gosh, all these different pieces and all these different components.

And my main focus is trademarks and contracts. And the podcast focus is trademarks because it is. a big buzzword in the online space. People kind of hear the [00:04:00] word trademark and think it's something that they absolutely have to do. And I'm a huge proponent of registering your trademarks, but actually providing an actionable advice and you know, how-to and guides in terms of getting your business set up the best way that you can and making sure that you're using a mark that's actually protectable and you're not going to be on the receiving end of a cease and desist.

Being able to break it down kind of by topic in a way that flows versus just dumping a ton of information on people, I think has been the most beneficial thing.

Rachael Botfield: Yeah, I know somebody that went through the was going through the trademark process and I think somebody else was using the same trademark as her and they had to, either she had to change, but I know she was saying the whole process was lost because she had to re then start again and, and, and.

So it's especially, I think she's she was doing it for coaching and she had a practice, so she wanted to do that. So I feel like that would be quite important that you want to have that trademark [00:05:00] sealed down so that it's there for your business. I noticed one of your episodes recently was talking about that, a trademark on your brand as well, which I found quite interesting.

Nicole Cheri Oden: Yeah, because they really are two distinct pieces. And I think a lot of people lump together a brand and a trademark. And while they're related, they are different. You know, your brand really is the way that you make your clients and your customers feel about your products or your services.

And when people see your trademarks, they think of your brand. And just to kind of go back to the beginning, a trademark really is a source indicator. You know, a phrase, a tagline, a name, a logo, something that really ties to your brand in the marketplace so that people see it and think, Oh, that belongs to Nicole or, Oh, that belongs to Rachel.

That's who's providing those goods or services. And people kind of start there and like, Oh, I'm going to jump out there and start operating under. You know, this name or this logo without really kind of doing the legwork for all of the research and all of the [00:06:00] kind of issues spotting before you spend the money trying to register.

And that was kind of where the idea for the private pod podcast came in because I was having a lot of consultations with online business owners that. We're kind of jumping ahead without having done kind of that due diligence and looking before they left and having to have that hard conversation with them about, okay, well, there's either already a registered mark or there's, you know, a company that's been using it for, you know, 10 plus years.

So we're treading on thin ice here. And so it's kind of a way to provide that education and that free resource, which is a big cornerstone of my law firm is I really want to make. Legal approachable and accessible for everyone, no matter whether you're a huge billion dollar corporation or you're a scrappy online business owner that, you know, is making 10 K a month.

I want to make sure that you're getting protections in place and you have the knowledge because you do have to have some legal knowledge as an entrepreneur. It's just [00:07:00] not something you can get away from.

Rachael Botfield: Exactly. So that was where the idea, like you said, talking to some of your clients, that was where you came up with the idea for the podcast.

So how did you kind of start with the planning side of things? Did you have a frequency in mind or all those kind of things? Things that you have to do with a podcast, did you, how did you kind of get started?

Nicole Cheri Oden: Yeah, I mean, I, to be honest, I was a little scared about adding something else to my plate because I do have two businesses.

So I have a law firm, but then I also have an online business that provides legal templates and resources for online business owners. So I have that day to day going on. And so it was kind of like, Ooh, I've got this great idea, but how do I make it? Not feel overwhelming because I think that was kind of my first initial impression was there was a lot of moving pieces to get a podcast up and out.

And so kind of, you know, serendipitously when I was thinking about this idea, about a month or two later, I'd heard about this platform called Hello Audio that gives you the opportunity to do public or private [00:08:00] podcasts. And I had been kind of toying with the idea of. A public podcast. And then when I heard this idea of a private podcast, I was like, Oh, this is great because then it can feel like it's a community that I'm fostering that kind of you're in this exclusive conversation with me, and it's a way that I can kind of connect with my clients as well.

And so I'd signed up cause they were having a. A black Friday special. And so I'd signed up just to try it. And I thought, okay, I'm just going to get scrappy and I'm going to, you know, try it. I'm going to launch one episode a month. That's all I started with. Cause it seemed like the easiest, like at least I could do that.

I could sit down and record one episode and go from there. And the podcast is. A year and two months old now, and I've moved to where it's an episode a week, but they're very short episodes, which is something I really wanted to, I mean, people aren't going to jump up and down to listen to a legal podcast for 45 minutes.

I mean, let's just be honest. And so making sure that the episodes were kind of digestible and bite size and approachable was big for me. So, you know, I think [00:09:00] my longest episode right now is 15 minutes. It's that, so.

Rachael Botfield: So two things, I love that they're short and actual like we say before we hit record, though I think the type of subject that you're doing as well, it works really, really well to have those short digestible pieces of information you're breaking down.

That information that people are feeling overwhelmed about and making it like really easy and simple for them to follow those, you know, follow your advice. And I love that it's a private podcast and I know that it's a free private podcast. So I was really, really interested in this. I've not heard of Hello Audio, did you say that you that you do that through?

So I use a podcast hosting platform called Captivate and they I had a course from a lady called Janet Murray and she has, in her course, she has private podcast she hosts through Captivate. So I'd seen that, but that was obviously a paid, a paid platform, so I'd not seen it like that, but I thought it was a really good idea, like you say, to foster that community and have.

People coming in, they really want to [00:10:00] listen to, about the trademarks, have that information from you. How have you found with people with signups and, and people joining your community?

Nicole Cheri Oden: Well, okay, so complete transparency here, which is a big thing for me. I had worked with a tech person to set up the landing page on my website who.

Set things up incorrectly. And I had no idea. And so it was conflicting with my cookies often so that when people landed on the page, rather than seeing the convert kit often form, it was blank unless they accepted all cookies. And that was that way for six months. And so the launch I've, and I've had a great amount of signups, but you know, was truncated, I think, because I mean, let's be honest, a lot of people don't accept for cookies these days because not everybody wants their actions across the internet tracked or they use incognito platforms.

So that was kind of like a bit wah wah. So when I found that out and I ended up hiring a new website management company to come [00:11:00] in and clean it up and so things are running now and the signups have increased exponentially since those first six months. That's so frustrating

Rachael Botfield: as well in your first six months to have that problem but like you're right it's something you wouldn't necessarily notice though, would you?

Because you don't go to your sign up page and, and major. And on

Nicole Cheri Oden: my, you know, when I visit, I've got all cookies because I want it, you know. Of course. And so it wasn't conflicting for me until I finally had somebody reach out and was like, Hey, like I went to your sign up page, but there's nothing there.

Blank. And I was like, what ?

Rachael Botfield: So, oh, well thankfully that person reaching out to you to, to do that. So yeah, that's really great that you've had, had silence and have people coming in that way. Yeah, I just really like that method of making, you know, people, you know, really being there as well because I, I feel like like podcast discoverability as well can be quite difficult.

on the whole, I think, searching through different platforms. So, you know that when [00:12:00] someone signs up, they really want to be there and they really want to listen to what you've got to say and the information that you're sharing. So, I think that's a really, really nice strategy to to use for your podcast.

How have you felt with kind of like the production elements of the podcast, like the recording and. You said you've upped your kind of recordings now, episodes. So how have you found, because I think one of the biggest things I say to people is have you got time for a podcast? Can you fit in your business?

And I think, you know, you did the sensible thing where you, you know, you look at what you can manage because. I think it's overwhelming starting a new project anyway, but then trying to crowbar it in when actually you don't really have the time is just so difficult, I think, as well. So, how have you found things have evolved over, like, just over a year that you've been podcasting?

Nicole Cheri Oden: Yeah, so I started with the month to month episode, and because So once you join the private podcast, you get access to the feed and you have all, you can binge all the [00:13:00] episodes. And then you also get emailed weekly as they come out now. And I had transitioned to weekly because the once a month, even just picking one topic a month, because there's so many components to things, the episodes were going to be longer and it just felt.

overwhelming. And I didn't want to overwhelm my listeners. I didn't want them to tune in to a couple of episodes and think, okay, this is still too much for me. And so what I would do is pick a topic. And then I started breaking it down into the weekly episodes and that's felt a little bit more digestible.

So I live and die by my calendar. And so what I've done is I, I blocked out one morning a month where I sit down and I map out my four episodes. another morning where I record the four episodes. And since my episodes average around five minutes, it's, you know, a couple of outtakes, but it's, it's, it's, you know, maybe an hour, hour and a half that I'm recording in the scheme of things.

And I send it off to my editor who just adds on the intro and the outro and cleans up the audio and sends it [00:14:00] back to me like the next week. And so it's become kind of this streamlined process for me where it's really not. Very time consuming and then everything gets uploaded and I can schedule everything and I can schedule my emails and I work with a copywriter so she's able to go in, listen, pull out the emails, pull out show notes, and everything is just kind of streamlined at this point.

And there was a, you know, the first six months with finding out the opt in issue and kind of toying with how Frequently, I wanted to email people and, you know, what I wanted to include in the emails and the show notes was kind of a learning curve, but I feel like I've found my groove now, and it's kind of a well oiled machine.

Yeah, I

Rachael Botfield: think doing things, you know, over a year now, like say you've managed to get your process and you know what you need to do. I was going to ask about the marketing, so you have somebody that supports you to be able to You know, get your promotional stuff out of there. I think having an email list for your podcast is a really, really good thing.

I, I have one for mine that I like to, you know, every time a new episode comes [00:15:00] out and you know you're sharing it that way. How have you found kind of listener engagement or people engaging with you in the podcast? 'cause I know that I speak to a lot of other podcasts and for myself, sometimes it's quite difficult to get, you know, you feel sometimes you're speaking out into the void and you're not sure who's listening.

Even that. You know, even when you look at your stats kind of thing. So how do you feel with your engagement and with your audience?

Nicole Cheri Oden: Yeah, it's been interesting to watch. So the email open rate is sitting at about 80 percent right now, which is really good. And then the click through rate is at about like 50, which is still decent.

And then I'm finding that the episode downloads is going up, like the further I get, and I think part of that too is testing the subject lines. So I find that when I, the episode titles and the subject line of the emails, when they correspond with something that's kind of a, a pain point that I've heard about from clients versus more of an informational title, they're [00:16:00] opened more frequently and listened to more frequently.

So that's been an interesting, like trying to find.

Rachael Botfield: That's really interesting. Subject lines. I, I find them very difficult myself to create subject lines that you hope that that people are going to find that stand out. It's just kind of like another piece that you need to fit in. Is it your copywriter that comes up with the, helps you with the, the subject lines and things?

Because I use a lot of I sometimes use AI to help give me some, you know, enticing words that I can build into what I already, you know, Kind of have for the episode.

Nicole Cheri Oden: Yeah, so I adore my copywriter. We've, we've found this really good synergy. We've been working together for like two years now and she's like my left hand for all things copy in both my businesses, honestly.

And so what I do is she gets the complete episodes and then I'll kind of give her thoughts about like this is kind of what I'm thinking and then she will go check like The subject line scoring and use her tools to kind of give me [00:17:00] feedback. And sometimes we'll A and B test in terms of like, do we want to add an emoji?

Do we want to add a more descriptive term? And like we get kind of creative. And so that I think gamifying it almost and like looking at it as. It's not something I have to do, but something that I get to do, I get to share my wisdom and I get to connect with, with people and I get to experiment, I think has made it a lot more fun for me because it's kind of like, Oh, okay, let's see how this subject line does.

And let's see how something as small as adding an emoji does, it's made it a little bit more fun and not so much of a, Oh, this is something I have to sit down and do this month.

Rachael Botfield: I think that's the, the danger with, with anything that you don't want it to feel repetitive or you kind of get either overwhelmed or bored with it because then it's, it doesn't feel like it's encouraging you to want to continue doing something when it's hard.

I mean, I know that. It's marketing in general, I know a lot of people struggle with it and struggle with, you know, coming up with themes and ideas and things like [00:18:00] that. So how do you feel that your podcast works, kind of like fits into your business, kind of with your marketing as well? Do you use it in your marketing, kind of like for your social media and things like that as well?

Nicole Cheri Oden:

Yeah, so I try and say, you know, sign up for the private podcast. In at least one to two social media captions you know, still giving value independently of if they sign up or not, but like if they want to dive a little bit deeper and further than joining the podcast, it's kind of the next step. It's kind of also been great because with Hello Audio, there's shareable links.

So sometimes like with a client, I'll have a conversation about. You know, the supplemental register or classes or so we'll have a conversation then I can shoot them an email and be like, Hey, like if you wanted to kind of reinforce what we talked about or, you know, here's an episode and I can literally send them the link so that they can listen without even having to sign up for the podcast.

So that's really nice. Yeah. Yeah. So something I'm toying with is I'm going to be actually adding in another opt in that's kind of even more ground level. [00:19:00] about naming, because that's kind of the, the crux, right? As you're trying to come up with a name for your product, your service, your business, and kind of the legal things to think about in a more approachable way.

And then we're going to curate kind of a library of episodes where they don't have to. necessarily sign up, but they kind of tie to the download and then they have the option to continue to get the, the episodes. And so that's something that we're toying with now. So it's still evolving. It's still growing.

It's become a really fun tool. Yeah. So I'm excited to see kind of where we grow and where we build from here.

Rachael Botfield: So kind of like a private playlist almost. Mm hmm. Yeah, I love the idea. Actually, you know Devin Lee as well, don't you? So, Devin, I remember when I met her, she had a playlist for all the podcasts that she'd been on.

And I, that was kind of like the first time this was, you know, a year ago now, but that was the first time I'd come across, like, curated playlists. that you, for podcasts. I've seen obviously curated playlists for music and things like that, but I'd never really thought [00:20:00] about them in terms of podcasts. And I love the idea that she could have that on her website, have all the curate, like all the episodes that she's been on to promote them.

And then, cause I, I created one myself, like for just the beginner episodes and things like that. So I think that as time goes on and like you say. different things come up in different topics, so you can pull out those themes and share those as a playlist. I think that's a really nice way. Also to get people introduced to your podcast as well, and then they can choose to kind of like, get the rest of the episodes after having like, access to that playlist.

Nicole Cheri Oden: Yeah, no, I, and I like that idea. That's actually a really good idea, and one of the other things that I was toying with was actually adding And I haven't done this yet, but adding a shareable link. One of the episodes is like what it looks like to work with my law firm. So I walk you through from when you first reach out to hopefully when you reach registration and then beyond how you can continue to work with me.

And so I've toyed with adding the link to the episode in my signature line in my email. And so that might be something that I do this year too. Yeah,

Rachael Botfield: that's a great idea. I, in my signature, I do [00:21:00] have. I have the link to my podcast, I have the link to my freebie playbook podcast playbook, and then I've started a podcast community with my friend Sarah, so I put that link in the bottom there.

I think having that, because it's kind of like prime real estate, isn't it really, if someone's looking at your signature and you make it look really fun. I wonder whether you can, I don't know whether you can like actually embed the episode in the bottom of the email signature, that would be quite interesting to find out whether you can actually do that, but I'm not sure whether that's.

I don't know if it's capable or not, but you know, like you can on your website, you can embed like a player. Although when I've ever tried to embed the actual player in an email, I've never managed to get it to work properly. So I just have a link to go to the player itself, but I've seen people embed the player in the email.

before, but mine never seems to show up. Maybe that's just my email provider, but I think, I think things like that on emails I think it could work really well, especially when you're reaching out to, to new people and things like that make it [00:22:00] like, you know, more pretty for people to, to click on.

Yeah.

Nicole Cheri Oden: Yeah. And zhuzhing up my email search alignment. This year is on my to dos. So.

Rachael Botfield: Yeah, I did mine last year. I was like, Oh, I'm going to make it look all pretty. It's like, there are, I, I kind of create an image and, I don't know if you can put links in there. Canva is a great thing for helping you with design work.

I found when I first started my business, discovering Canva was like, Oh my gosh, I love this.

Nicole Cheri Oden: Yeah, no Canva I think was one of the very first spends when I launched.

Rachael Botfield: Yeah, mine now.

Nicole Cheri Oden: It's a suck hole for me because I can spend way too long in Canva, so I have a graphic designer as well that I'm happily, like, here.

Yeah. So that I don't spend hours upon hours tweaking fonts and sizes and

Rachael Botfield: Yeah, it can get quite time sucky. I quite like the fact that I just like that you can have the templates. I often change the bits, but I, for me, I find it difficult. I'm not a graphic designer, so to [00:23:00] start with a blank page, I'm just like, I don't know what to do here.

So, but having those templates and things you can pull from just makes it easier to be a bit more creative than I necessarily would be if I wasn't, you know, just had to start with a blank page, you know, the time

Nicole Cheri Oden: before Canvas. Yes. Templates make everything so much easier.

Rachael Botfield: Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. Well, thank you for sharing your experience with your podcast.

I, I just. I really love how the way you're doing private podcasts, it's definitely something to think about and I shall be telling other people about your strategy. Do you have any other kind of tips or advice you'd like to offer somebody who's just starting out with their podcast? I,

Nicole Cheri Oden: I think it's really just to, to do it.

Like, to make the commitment that you're gonna try. And reach out to somebody like you, if, if you don't have any idea of how to get started to kind of get some insight in terms of these are the next steps and I can work with you to help get things together, but yeah, [00:24:00] I think that was kind of the biggest hurdle for me was just.

Feeling overwhelmed by all the tech options, and there's so many people that you can work with and platforms you can use that have really streamlined the process these days. So it's not as overwhelming as I think it first seems.

Rachael Botfield: Yeah, I think, you know, your piece of advice, a lot of people give that advice just to start.

I think I did that myself. I just started, and Yeah, kind of dove in and then figure a lot of stuff out along the way. I think that it's really, I think there's that perfectionism part of thing that does hold back with letting it, with kind of what people will think and is it correct and I get that my, you know, myself that, you know, you feel like you should know everything before you, before you hit go and I love that podcasts can You know, evolve along the way, the more that your knowledge expands, you know, you can evolve your podcast and change things up.

You know, I've done that with mine and, and yours has evolved to the more confident you get and the more feedback you get from your listeners as [00:25:00] well. So I think that that's a really lovely thing seeing, you know, from the very beginning and then you're seeing your podcast evolving over the years or over the episodes.

Do you have any other podcast plans? Anything? that you see in the future or, or anything like that? You know, I've

Nicole Cheri Oden: toyed with turning it public. And so kind of my commitment to myself this year was let's go all in on it, being private and really trying to grow that listenership and that community feeling.

And then in December, when I start planning for 2025, like really revisiting. Is the private serving the way that I felt it was going to serve the way I wanted it to, or should I make it public or should I maybe, you know, keep pieces private and other things public? Because the other thing I tried was doing like a curated public feed of just a limited amount of episodes that leads back to the private podcast to kind of build that exposure.

So there's a lot of strategies, but I'm trying to stay very focused on. A couple of things. Yeah.

Rachael Botfield: It's, it's [00:26:00] so easy to get distracted by some other strategies as well. And I think that I personally think podcasting is, is a long, a long term game and it takes, well, for what I found anyway, you know, it takes time to build, build your audience and also having that community and engagement is probably much.

Much better than feeling like, you know, you've got maybe quite a lot of downloads, but you're not connecting with anybody there. And also you want it to help, you know, your podcast is for your business. You want it to be able to support your business in that way. You know, we are all here. This is our business.

We want to earn some money. It's not like this big hidden thing. And like, this is what I would love my podcast to do. Like if somebody's listening and they want to do it themselves, great. I would love this podcast to help. But also the, you know, People need support and needs help and reaching out. That is also great and, you know, I think that that's how podcasts fit in with your business in that way.

It's an [00:27:00] extra tool that you're, you know, you're giving back and helping build in that community, but also it's helping build your business at the same time. Yeah,

Nicole Cheri Oden: exactly. I agree 100%. So, I think it's really just experimentation. this year. I think it's just another year of experimentation and, and enjoying the process.

Rachael Botfield: I love how positive you are about it. I love how, that how experimental your ideas are. When I first started, I was kind of like, I feel like you go down the one route and like open, then something opens up and I don't know, you seem like very Yeah. Very positive and inquisitive. That's the word I'm thinking of.

Inquisitive about podcasting. So I wish you the best of luck with your podcast and would you like to just tell him on where you hang out, where they can find you? And I'll pop all the links in the show notes, but love to just let us know where people can get in touch with

Nicole Cheri Oden: you. Yeah. So you can find me on LinkedIn, Nicole Sri Oden, and I'm on Instagram and Facebook, Nicole Sri Oden Law.

My legal templates and [00:28:00] resources are at legal templates and more on Instagram and Pinterest and Facebook and all the places. So really, if you just type in my name, I'm normally the first person that

Rachael Botfield: pops up. Oh, brilliant. But yeah, I will leave a link to your podcast and all your socials and everything there so people can get in touch with you easily if they want to follow up with you.

Thanks so much, Nicole, for coming on and hopefully we'll speak again

Nicole Cheri Oden: soon. Yeah, thanks for having me. This was a fun conversation.

Rachael Botfield: Thanks for listening to the show. If you'd like to connect with me or get in touch, then head on over to my website. If you liked the episode, then I'd love it if you could leave me a review in your chosen podcast app.

Your feedback is much appreciated. See you next time.